Closure of Right of Way between Algiers Road and Greatfield Close

Hi, I replied in the comments.

How would sealing the gate shut solve the crime problem? I have said this already, but since the gate went in it has all gone quiet, there is nothing visibly or audibly anti-social, going on on the estate. I know this because I live on that corner and overlook the estate. That does not mean that there is no criminal activity or organised crime, but it does beg the question: exactly what is going to be achieved by sealing up the gate? No one has answered this question. What is the role of the gate in this criminal activity exactly? I want to see the police and the council tackle the problems effectively, but I feel this focus on the gate is just a red herring. Why have the council and police not installed cctv? why are they relying on the (dubious) filming efforts of the man who lives on the estate? Why, if they know who the criminals are, are they not able to collect the evidence they need, or issue eviction notices?

11 years ago Featured

I also spoke to Ato of PFI Brockley who confirmed that whilst plans to close the gate had been suspended the situation in the estate would continue to be monitored. He emphasised that the anti-social behaviour was a serious issue that involved criminal activity taking place during the day and night and that local police were involved in the decision making process. He was sympathetic to local residents to whom closure would cause inconvenience but had to balance this against trying to eliminate organised criminal activity taking place on the estate. My sense following this conversation was that the proposition to close the gate was a considered and justified measure designed to make the estate and neighbourhood a safer environment for all.

Just seeing Chris Marley comments I have to say I live on Greatfield close and have for many years,I walk up Algiers road when I finish work late as Adelaide avenue is very dark and I don't feel safe on my own, I get home after midnight and walk down the slope I haven't ever witnessed any anti social behaviour at these times ,in fact Algiers rd is very quiet.i can see the gate from my flat and have never witnessed any crime, many of the locals know they are being filmed by a camera so can't see where the crimes are being commited where a CCTV camera is situated,I must say a few years ago there was youths in the blocks of flats but not anymore,I think the anti-social behaviour keep being mentioned is over exaggerated,there is only a handful for private tenants on Greatfield close an feel that the rest of us weren't informed until very recently of this,I saw a comment about children playing football if you look in the car park you will see a painted goal post painted on the wall which the council must of painted on there years ago but it's still there.many residents from here use the pathway especially the school children

11 years ago Featured

Hi Anita, I live on the corner and my bedroom window looks out onto the estate, I work at home, my office is my bedroom. I spend many days in that room and I can say with absolute certainty that there is not a 24 hour anti-social behaviour problem. I am not trying to diminish the real concerns of ASB on the estate, if people are being threatened then that has to be taken seriously by everyone. But kids playing football!?? The place is quiet most of the day and since the gate appeared, most of the night too. People walking their kids to school or going to the surgery only make the place safer. Ato Arko-Nelson has got a very strange fixation on the gate, the problems they are trying to address will not be fixed by sealing up the gate.

I have just spoken to Ato Arko-Nelson and he is still adamant that the gate welding must go ahead. I suggested a daytime opening/night closure system for the gate, which we would volunteer to carry out, but he said that would not work as the antisocial behaviour was happening during the day. I emphasised how useful this shortcut was for us on Veda/Algiers for all the usual reasons (doctors, schools, Hilly Fields etc) and that if I was a Greatfield resident I would consider a compromise like night locking/day opening - but then he kept repeating that the antisocial behaviour was a 24 hour concern and people didn't feel safe at any time with people traipsing through. He mentioned kids playing football on the estate as a concern (!) and mentioned mopeds as well - though when I suggested a zig zag gate to stop this he just went back to the all day antisocial problems they are experiencing. So I don't know, feel a bit gloomy now.

I've been trying to find out the rules about changing or closing a right of way. This from the Ramblers Association was the most concise, I assume it applies to any footpath " 24. Can a landowner close or divert a path? No. Closure and diversion - that is, a change to a path’s route - can only be carried out by local authorities or central government. Path closures Under the most common procedure a highway authority (see Q7) can make an order to close a path if it considers the path is no longer needed for public use. A notice must be published in a local paper and also placed at both ends of the path. At least 28 days must be allowed for objections. These must be heard at a public inquiry taken by an inspector from the Planning Inspectorate, or by hearing (less formal than an inquiry), or they may be considered in writing if the objectors agree. Path diversions These may not take place if the new route will be substantially less convenient to the public than the existing one, and account must also be taken of the effect the diversion will have on public enjoyment of the path as a whole. The procedure is the same as for closure orders. Paths may also be closed or diverted “in order to enable development to be carried out in accordance with planning permission”. There are also provisions for highway authorities to apply to magistrates courts for closure or diversion of paths, and for orders to be made in other circumstances such as the construction of new roads, railways and reservoirs, both on a permanent and temporary basis. Notice of temporary orders must be given on site; however there is no specified procedure for objections. If you have any doubts about the legality of a change to a path, contact the highway authority (see Q7). - See more at: http://www.ramblers.org.uk/go-walking/the-expert-view/rights-of-way-and-access-issues/basics-of-rights-of-way-law.aspx#sthash.vAkrj4fq.dpuf "

Living at the top of the road I concur with other comments confirming the gate itself has eliminated mopeds driving through this route. I also empathise with residents of Greatfield Close in wanting to eliminate criminal activity in our neighbourhood as I think this wish is likely shared by the majority of local residents. However, I don't think permanent closure of this gate will achieve this common goal as the front of the estate will still be open to cars, bikes and mopeds so access will not be restricted. There are other measures such as closure between sunrise and sunset, improvements in community and neighbourhood policing that don't appear to have been considered and could effect positive change without adversely effecting the young and old who I see using the gate on a daily basis. I have spoken to the land registry who have confirmed that the land is owned by Lewisham Council. As such the council is accountable for taking into consideration the views of all it's tax paying residents. As a community who also have a responsibility to respectfully consider the views and needs of all residents in seeking a resolution for a shared issue instead of finding reasons to be divisive. We all want a safer neighbourhood can we not unite as a community to find ways of achieving this together.

Perhaps not a discussion for here, but I was under the impression that Greatfield Close was PFI managed - therefore, ultimately governed by Lewisham Council but funded privately? I would be interested therefore to understand fully that implication as it is NOT private housing, it is council housing managed by a private company on behalf of the council.

11 years ago Featured

Please see in other comments: Kay McGregor, United Kingdom 9 hours ago Comments: At this evening's Ladywell Assembly Meeting Councillor Carl Handley informed me that iron gate was erected on the recommendation of the local police to put a stop to anti social behaviour and criminal behaviour on the Greatfield Estate at night. He had only become aware of the issue today but went on to say that there is the intention of restricting access as of the 10th October 2014 and that the care taker will be provided with keys. He stated it was private land so there was no public right of way.

Looking at the comments on here, everyone should bear in mind that Greatfield Close is not a 'council estate' but many of the properties are privately owned and like your homes are not under the control of Lewisham Council, but are privately managed. I understand that it would be an inconvenience to walk down the road, rather than crossing privately owned land, however how many of you would like to have groups of youths around your door all night, possibly dealing drugs and using the crossover point between Algiers and Greatfield as an easy route to ferry supplies, either on foot or on motorbikes. You don't have to be Sherlock to notice how many times the Police are seen at the top end of Algiers Road to understand why this path might deliver anti-social activities, that none of us want in our neighbourhoods, safer neighbourhoods for everyone are the top priority over and above everything, don't you think? How about all of you who have signed the petition, take a walk out this evening at between 12am and 1am and see how safe you feel, maybe take your children with you, try using one of the stairwells pretending that you live there , then ask yourselves if you think it's fair that the cut through across privately owned land is being closed so that the residents can feel safe, when using their front door. Please try to see both sides of the story, not just your own.

See new comment at head of this thread. Thanks.

Steve (Olson) and for general information. I initially contacted the council and police via Twitter to complain about the padlock. After two days, I received a reply advising that it was put in place by PFI Brockley, who manage Greatfields Close on behalf of the council (outsourced services). It was done after consulting with the council, the police and councillors. I don't know whether as an outsourced service this affects the jurisdiction of the estate, but I assume it's still ultimately governed by the council and therefore, the path is a public right of way - this needs to be clarified. I contacted PFI Brockley and spoke to the Housing Manager for the estate, Ato Arko-Nelson (020 7635 1203), who confirmed that it was they who padlocked the gate and that the plan was to weld it shut as a result of anti-social behaviour from the minority. They said they had consulted with residents of Greatfield Close but not other residents. I highlighted that the gate was a two way portal and that the pathway indicated a right of way, but he was adamant this didn't matter and residents of Algiers or Veda would not be consulted. As I said, I don't know if this is a public right of way and I don't live close enough to the gate to confirm if anti-social behaviour of mopeds and similar has reduced since the gate was put in. At the very least, there needs to be a confirmation over jurisdiction and then a consultation of ALL residents who are affected.

11 years ago Featured

When I first moved into Algiers Road there was a fence erected. This was vandalized many times, so they then built a wall. I cannot see any logical reason for change. If this pathway is blocked off, then it will be vandalized again and the council will have to give in as before. They should just leave well along.

To Susanne, yes, I think we all would. I'm hoping this petition will get the matter out in the open, get a discussion going and flush out the facts.

11 years ago Featured

No I cannot, the council have been phoned several times by several people and have given very unclear, misleading even, information. I am by no means an expert but the council built the foot path and put the gate in, that seems to suggest that they own the land and also that it is an accepted right of way. Also, as I understand it, the law is the same whether it is publicly or privately owned. I just want to get the debate out in the open and discussed by the people it affects, there is clearly something going on because the gate keeps getting padlocked.

Can you explain the full details of what and who has decided? And also before talk of right of way, legal aspects and democratic process, you might want to check before making these statements, it could be the case that the land is privatly owners and has no legal right of way.

11 years ago Featured

To the anonymous person who posted a note through my door... there was annoying activity with motorbikes and possibly other criminal activity (I have know way of knowing) going on on the corner of Greatfield Close by the gate. Once the gate went up that stopped... completely. The activities of the house opposite the gate on Algiers Road have nothing to with the gate, how is sealing the gate up going to change what goes on in that house, it isn't. If anything it's going to make the whole area more unsafe as there will be no general public/ordinary folk passing through all day as there is now.