Status: Closed — this petition is no longer accepting signatures.
Experiential Credit Petition
Final supporters
PETITION
To: UNT Dallas College of Law Curriculum Committee
As part-time evening students in a law program, making the decision to attend law school required sacrifices across several areas of our life including our family and our careers. While we began law school with a full understanding of what it would take to successfully complete the program, we were also promised that allowances would be made so that we could still successfully manage other areas of our life.
We the undersigned find that the current requirements for the clinic or externship programs are unrealistic for part-time evening students to successfully complete. While we want to complete the school's and the ABA's requirements for experiential learning, we also request that our time and priorities be respected.
As part-time evening students, the current requirements as definitions of the clinic and externship requirement presents three problems:
1. Several evening students already work in the legal field, under the supervision of an attorney, yet the current definition of an externship does not allow for these students to use their jobs to satisfy the externship requirement.
2. The hours required to complete the clinic or externship are unrealistic for part-time evening students. We work 40+ hours per week and have already had to put school ahead of our careers and families to meet the demands necessary to graduate. The current requirements for the externship and clinic are nearly impossible to attain.
- Since part-time students are not able to complete the current required hours that must be dedicated to the clinic or externship program in one semester, this presents a problem for students on financial aid or reimbursement from their employer who must successfully complete a class to receive a reimbursement for enrolling in future classes at the law school.
We would like to have a greater understanding of how the school's experiential learning requirements differ from the ABA's. The ABA requires six hours of experiential learning and this type of learning as defined by the ABA should allow some or all of our Practice Foundations courses to count towards experiential learning. (ABA Standards 303(a)(3), 303(b), and 304) We would also like to engage in an open, respectful dialogue with school faculty and administration on finding a solution to this problem. While we are willing to work to find a solution we can all agree on, we would also like to propose the following solutions:
1. That the definition of the externship requirement be expanded to align with the ABA's recent lift to include for-profit positions so that students who already work under the supervision of an attorney can use their job to count towards the externship requirement. This will benefit both part-time and full-time students
2. That the total hours required to complete the clinic (clinic time, class time, time spent outside of class writing papers) or externship be reduced to something manageable by evening students and that it reflect what other evening law school programs across the country employ.
- That part-time evening students be allowed to complete two practicums in place of the clinic or externship.
We look forward to continuing this conversation with members of the law school faculty and administration to determine a solution in a timely and respectful manner.
Sincerely,
UNT Dallas College of Law Students
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Updates
April 5, 2017
I have been staring at these emails from the committee and honestly it is just so frustrating how they keep missing the point that we are already working in the field and should not have to choose between our jobs and these credits. I am currently trying to draft a proposal that actually makes sense for our schedules because the silence from the faculty side is starting to get really loud despite my constant pestering.
29 Comments
I had to leave full-time employment in order to complete my externship. With four children this was a massive burden on my family as the sole provider.
While I appreciate the Clinic program for bringing out the opportunity to gain real life experience in applying the law, practicing interviewing and counseling, and helping the community, the program rules make it very difficult to actually participate in it because of the amount of hours required, the need to complete the hours in two semesters, and that the clinic time be scheduled in two hours increments. I support this petition because I am hopeful that the school can change the requirements to something more manageable for the part-time and all students, not only to reduce the amount of hours required but also to increase the allotted time for completion.
Although I have completed the required hours for clinic, I honestly do not wish that upon anyone. If the school can relax its requirements, I know that all students from here on out, whether full-time or part-time, will be less stressed and have more time to focus on the most important aspect of law school, passing the bar. If the ABA has it's requirements, then our school should not create requirements that go so far above and beyond those requirements. If the school can allow students to get paid for externships, then it should. Student debt, including my own, is a huge stress, therefore to have had that option would have been great. This should NOT be about, "well I had to do it, therefore so should you". It should be about the future success of OUR law school and making sure the requirements are created fairly for that particular program. While this petition seems tailored to just the part-time students, I can clearly see the benefit it would have for full-time students who come after me.
As Maslanka would say, this may be outside of the zip code, but it would benefit us all to remember that we should be grateful to be in the positions we find ourselves in. Our challenges are unique to each other and none is greater than our peers. I encourage everyone to listen to the Freakonmics Podcast about Tailwind Headwind Assymetry as it attempts to answer the bias when people ask "why is my life so much harder?" Enjoy and go UNT! http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-my-life-so-hard/
I've already had this discussion with Pryor and Haseltine, and was told the two practicums would not satisfy this. You can do two clinics or two externships, but two practicums is not applicable. We are asking that it become acceptable, hence this petition to receive clarification and approval.
The 2015 entering requirements state: "Completion of at least two courses from any of the following three categories: Practicum, Externship, and Clinic. Subject to approval, two courses can be from the same category." I can do two Practiums but the Clinic hours are too excessive. Currently I take vacation days just to do the CEP because I want the experience rather than just legal research on the weekends. I am not asking for exceptions, rather accommodations.
I agree.
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Status: Closed — this petition is no longer accepting signatures.
Experiential Credit Petition
Final supporters
PETITION
To: UNT Dallas College of Law Curriculum Committee
As part-time evening students in a law program, making the decision to attend law school required sacrifices across several areas of our life including our family and our careers. While we began law school with a full understanding of what it would take to successfully complete the program, we were also promised that allowances would be made so that we could still successfully manage other areas of our life.
We the undersigned find that the current requirements for the clinic or externship programs are unrealistic for part-time evening students to successfully complete. While we want to complete the school's and the ABA's requirements for experiential learning, we also request that our time and priorities be respected.
As part-time evening students, the current requirements as definitions of the clinic and externship requirement presents three problems:
1. Several evening students already work in the legal field, under the supervision of an attorney, yet the current definition of an externship does not allow for these students to use their jobs to satisfy the externship requirement.
2. The hours required to complete the clinic or externship are unrealistic for part-time evening students. We work 40+ hours per week and have already had to put school ahead of our careers and families to meet the demands necessary to graduate. The current requirements for the externship and clinic are nearly impossible to attain.
- Since part-time students are not able to complete the current required hours that must be dedicated to the clinic or externship program in one semester, this presents a problem for students on financial aid or reimbursement from their employer who must successfully complete a class to receive a reimbursement for enrolling in future classes at the law school.
We would like to have a greater understanding of how the school's experiential learning requirements differ from the ABA's. The ABA requires six hours of experiential learning and this type of learning as defined by the ABA should allow some or all of our Practice Foundations courses to count towards experiential learning. (ABA Standards 303(a)(3), 303(b), and 304) We would also like to engage in an open, respectful dialogue with school faculty and administration on finding a solution to this problem. While we are willing to work to find a solution we can all agree on, we would also like to propose the following solutions:
1. That the definition of the externship requirement be expanded to align with the ABA's recent lift to include for-profit positions so that students who already work under the supervision of an attorney can use their job to count towards the externship requirement. This will benefit both part-time and full-time students
2. That the total hours required to complete the clinic (clinic time, class time, time spent outside of class writing papers) or externship be reduced to something manageable by evening students and that it reflect what other evening law school programs across the country employ.
- That part-time evening students be allowed to complete two practicums in place of the clinic or externship.
We look forward to continuing this conversation with members of the law school faculty and administration to determine a solution in a timely and respectful manner.
Sincerely,
UNT Dallas College of Law Students
Updates
April 5, 2017
I have been staring at these emails from the committee and honestly it is just so frustrating how they keep missing the point that we are already working in the field and should not have to choose between our jobs and these credits. I am currently trying to draft a proposal that actually makes sense for our schedules because the silence from the faculty side is starting to get really loud despite my constant pestering.
29 Comments
As an evening student, in order to graduate in December 2017 or even May 2018 I would need to start my clinic or externship hours this summer. I have calculated it out and even if I got to the clinic straight from work and worked until close on weeknights then spent my entire Saturday there from the beginning of the summer semester to the end I would still not have enough hours to satisfy the unreasonable 168 hour requirement. Furthermore, Clinic is offered on Monday's from 5:05pm - 6:05pm and Externship is offered on Monday's from 4:00pm - 5:00pm. When we signed up for the evening program we were told classes would start at 6:15pm. These classes do not accommodate evening students.
I had to leave full-time employment in order to complete my externship. With four children this was a massive burden on my family as the sole provider.
While I appreciate the Clinic program for bringing out the opportunity to gain real life experience in applying the law, practicing interviewing and counseling, and helping the community, the program rules make it very difficult to actually participate in it because of the amount of hours required, the need to complete the hours in two semesters, and that the clinic time be scheduled in two hours increments. I support this petition because I am hopeful that the school can change the requirements to something more manageable for the part-time and all students, not only to reduce the amount of hours required but also to increase the allotted time for completion.
Although I have completed the required hours for clinic, I honestly do not wish that upon anyone. If the school can relax its requirements, I know that all students from here on out, whether full-time or part-time, will be less stressed and have more time to focus on the most important aspect of law school, passing the bar. If the ABA has it's requirements, then our school should not create requirements that go so far above and beyond those requirements. If the school can allow students to get paid for externships, then it should. Student debt, including my own, is a huge stress, therefore to have had that option would have been great. This should NOT be about, "well I had to do it, therefore so should you". It should be about the future success of OUR law school and making sure the requirements are created fairly for that particular program. While this petition seems tailored to just the part-time students, I can clearly see the benefit it would have for full-time students who come after me.
As Maslanka would say, this may be outside of the zip code, but it would benefit us all to remember that we should be grateful to be in the positions we find ourselves in. Our challenges are unique to each other and none is greater than our peers. I encourage everyone to listen to the Freakonmics Podcast about Tailwind Headwind Assymetry as it attempts to answer the bias when people ask "why is my life so much harder?" Enjoy and go UNT! http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-my-life-so-hard/
I've already had this discussion with Pryor and Haseltine, and was told the two practicums would not satisfy this. You can do two clinics or two externships, but two practicums is not applicable. We are asking that it become acceptable, hence this petition to receive clarification and approval.
The 2015 entering requirements state: "Completion of at least two courses from any of the following three categories: Practicum, Externship, and Clinic. Subject to approval, two courses can be from the same category." I can do two Practiums but the Clinic hours are too excessive. Currently I take vacation days just to do the CEP because I want the experience rather than just legal research on the weekends. I am not asking for exceptions, rather accommodations.
I agree.
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As an evening student, in order to graduate in December 2017 or even May 2018 I would need to start my clinic or externship hours this summer. I have calculated it out and even if I got to the clinic straight from work and worked until close on weeknights then spent my entire Saturday there from the beginning of the summer semester to the end I would still not have enough hours to satisfy the unreasonable 168 hour requirement. Furthermore, Clinic is offered on Monday's from 5:05pm - 6:05pm and Externship is offered on Monday's from 4:00pm - 5:00pm. When we signed up for the evening program we were told classes would start at 6:15pm. These classes do not accommodate evening students.